Oh man... after reading Jonathan's book, The Anxious Generation, I'm in the anti-smartphone group BUT I am addicted to mine. I'm going to watch this conversation. Thanks for sharing Todd. Hope you're doing well.
Wow, this is a hard one. I love how technology makes me more effective and more efficient, at times. You can't stop technological advance and trying is just going to frustrate you. With that being said, I can remember Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners (and all dinners for that matter) where there was no threat of distraction. Kids learned how to talk, listen and connect.
My real fear, however, is simply the amount of information that young brains consume compared to previous generations. It's just more opportunity to worry and fear the future.
Sherrie Terkel writes that 'we have lost the ability to be bored.' I remember loathing the 3-hour ride to the Jersey Shore...and then I would stare out the window and let my imagination run wild. I learned how to work through boredom and strengthen my creativity.
Smartphones aren't the end of the world - they're just making it harder to have a healthy childhood and young adulthood.
Agreed. I don't know how you ignore Haidt and the others.
1. Porn - what will these boys act like in the next 20 years of their life?
2. Status - what happens long-term with this 24/7 competition to win likes that account for nothing in real life?
3. Lack of investment in real world relationships - the trade of time spent on phone calls and text with real people to allocate to randos online. How can this be a long term good?
I think about this all the time for Cassie. On one hand, she is a whole other, way psychologically healthier person when she has no phone. On the other hand, phones are a reality and sooner or later she has to learn to interact with one healthily. But should that be today? Later, when she is more mature? A thing to save for adulthood? I don't know.
I'm interested to watch the interview with Jon. I haven't heard what he's up to in a while.
Acacia, you're wiser than me as I rather impulsively gave V a phone when she graduated elementary school on the condition she would use it to set up and augment interactions in real life. That didn't work out as well as planned. So I have control over her screen time and we've reached a place where she no longer argues with me. But what a pain compared to the ease with her older twin sisters.
Anyone who says they know the answers, for your kid, by definition doesn't. Because there is a social access piece that I don't believe kids should miss.
It's wild. Cassie is so smart. I can set limits on her screen time but she has figured out how to access every screen in the house... TVs are basically as capable as smartphones now with way worse restriction software. She finds devices we didn't even remember we had (i.e. old retired smartphones). She watches me use my phone and memorized my password so she can change the parent controls. It's so bad. We have reached a point where we just had to take away everything.
I’m not Anti-smartphone per se, though I’m not avidly Pro-smartphone either.
I too have to wonder if the smartphone issue is related to some other undetected/unnamed antecedent to poor mental health. You point out religiosity (society as a whole has become less religious over the decades, perhaps smartphone usage is a current surrogate?)
Also - we may simply be seeing the natural systemic discomfort that stems from cultural change.
Finally - sometimes I wonder if we are too panicked about mental health deviations. We don’t panic with momentary physical ailments (cold, flu, etc). Perhaps, we need to accept that momentary mental ailments are normal and manageable. Our society has evolved enough to acknowledge that mental ailments exist. However, we may need further evolution to not fear every moment of mental distress. Life sucks a lot. There are unique tensions and stressors at each life stage that will knock us down. We’ll have a bout of anxiety or depression. It’s treatable and manageable. This is not to downplay the underlying threat of ailments in general (an unmanaged respiratory infection in a vulnerable kid is as scary and worrisome as suicidal thoughts from an eleven-year-old). Dunno - maybe I’m on the wrong track?
Meanwhile - I often think about John Calhoun’s Behavioural Sink concept from his experiments with rat colonies. Of course, there’s Bruce Alexander’s Rat Park findings. Maybe we’re using smartphones like the understimulated rats use heroin in their bland living arrangements?
Wow, there is so much great content in here. Let me sit with it. Mental health deviations - something that maybe we have to explore with some level of calm rational thought about alternative mechanisms such as cultural change. You are a delight to listen to.
Oh man... after reading Jonathan's book, The Anxious Generation, I'm in the anti-smartphone group BUT I am addicted to mine. I'm going to watch this conversation. Thanks for sharing Todd. Hope you're doing well.
Thanks Jon. With 3 young daughters same. And as a social scientist I’m torn because the data don’t quite back it up.
Do keep me posted on what you think. And share it with your tribe
Wow, this is a hard one. I love how technology makes me more effective and more efficient, at times. You can't stop technological advance and trying is just going to frustrate you. With that being said, I can remember Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners (and all dinners for that matter) where there was no threat of distraction. Kids learned how to talk, listen and connect.
My real fear, however, is simply the amount of information that young brains consume compared to previous generations. It's just more opportunity to worry and fear the future.
Sherrie Terkel writes that 'we have lost the ability to be bored.' I remember loathing the 3-hour ride to the Jersey Shore...and then I would stare out the window and let my imagination run wild. I learned how to work through boredom and strengthen my creativity.
Smartphones aren't the end of the world - they're just making it harder to have a healthy childhood and young adulthood.
Agreed. I don't know how you ignore Haidt and the others.
1. Porn - what will these boys act like in the next 20 years of their life?
2. Status - what happens long-term with this 24/7 competition to win likes that account for nothing in real life?
3. Lack of investment in real world relationships - the trade of time spent on phone calls and text with real people to allocate to randos online. How can this be a long term good?
I think about this all the time for Cassie. On one hand, she is a whole other, way psychologically healthier person when she has no phone. On the other hand, phones are a reality and sooner or later she has to learn to interact with one healthily. But should that be today? Later, when she is more mature? A thing to save for adulthood? I don't know.
I'm interested to watch the interview with Jon. I haven't heard what he's up to in a while.
Acacia, you're wiser than me as I rather impulsively gave V a phone when she graduated elementary school on the condition she would use it to set up and augment interactions in real life. That didn't work out as well as planned. So I have control over her screen time and we've reached a place where she no longer argues with me. But what a pain compared to the ease with her older twin sisters.
Anyone who says they know the answers, for your kid, by definition doesn't. Because there is a social access piece that I don't believe kids should miss.
It's wild. Cassie is so smart. I can set limits on her screen time but she has figured out how to access every screen in the house... TVs are basically as capable as smartphones now with way worse restriction software. She finds devices we didn't even remember we had (i.e. old retired smartphones). She watches me use my phone and memorized my password so she can change the parent controls. It's so bad. We have reached a point where we just had to take away everything.
Bookmark this for our next phone call. Glad you sign the clear indicators of her intellect. Clearly killer working memory.
Seriously! I am as impressed as I am vexed
This is such a thought-provoking conversation.
I’m not Anti-smartphone per se, though I’m not avidly Pro-smartphone either.
I too have to wonder if the smartphone issue is related to some other undetected/unnamed antecedent to poor mental health. You point out religiosity (society as a whole has become less religious over the decades, perhaps smartphone usage is a current surrogate?)
Also - we may simply be seeing the natural systemic discomfort that stems from cultural change.
Finally - sometimes I wonder if we are too panicked about mental health deviations. We don’t panic with momentary physical ailments (cold, flu, etc). Perhaps, we need to accept that momentary mental ailments are normal and manageable. Our society has evolved enough to acknowledge that mental ailments exist. However, we may need further evolution to not fear every moment of mental distress. Life sucks a lot. There are unique tensions and stressors at each life stage that will knock us down. We’ll have a bout of anxiety or depression. It’s treatable and manageable. This is not to downplay the underlying threat of ailments in general (an unmanaged respiratory infection in a vulnerable kid is as scary and worrisome as suicidal thoughts from an eleven-year-old). Dunno - maybe I’m on the wrong track?
Meanwhile - I often think about John Calhoun’s Behavioural Sink concept from his experiments with rat colonies. Of course, there’s Bruce Alexander’s Rat Park findings. Maybe we’re using smartphones like the understimulated rats use heroin in their bland living arrangements?
Wow, there is so much great content in here. Let me sit with it. Mental health deviations - something that maybe we have to explore with some level of calm rational thought about alternative mechanisms such as cultural change. You are a delight to listen to.